Comedy is having a moment. But it’s not all laughs.
First came the cancellation of “The Late Show With Stephen Colbert,” which will tape its final show next May.
Then came the immediate suspension of “Jimmy Kimmel Live!” in the wake of the host’s comments about the Charlie Kirk assassination, followed a few days later by Kimmel’s return.
And finally there was the backlash to the stand-ups — including Dave Chappelle, Bill Burr and Canada’s own Russell Peters and Sugar Sammy — who took big paycheques to perform at the inaugural Riyadh Comedy Festival in Saudi Arabia. The offer came with a list of subjects the comics could not discuss in their sets.
To talk about these and other topics, the Star assembled a group of Canadian comedy insiders: Ryan Belleville is a Canadian Comedy Award-winning writer, actor and stand-up, who’s probably best known for his role in the CBC series “Workin’ Moms”; Andrew Clark is the director of the Humber College Comedy Program in Toronto and in the 1990s became Canada’s first full-time comedy critic; and Liza Paul is the creator and lead curator of the annual Comedy Is Art festival, which takes place Oct. 22-26 at the Theatre Centre.
What were your first thoughts when Kimmel’s show got suspended?
Belleville A lot of people have become numb to what’s going on in the world, but something about the Kimmel suspension woke them up. I think it was such an egregious violation of the First Amendment, with the government literally leaning on the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) to pull somebody that the president didn’t like. It just felt wrong. When Congress fails, when institutions fail, at least we still have clowns like Jon Stewart. They are our last line of defense.
Paul What Kimmel said was not particularly egregious, especially if you think about some of the things that others have said in the public sphere. So that overreach was alarming.
Clark The idea of the government using a branch of the government that is not supposed to be political to basically make a very large and powerful organization like Disney censor somebody was startling.
The thing to remember is that governments that try to get this much control are not usually thinking about letting go of that control. You don’t create all this power for the president with the thought that Democrats are going to take it over afterward.
One side issue that came up, even after the suspension was lifted, was the impending death of the late-night talk show. Numbers are down. And if people watch them, it’s not in the traditional way, but rather on short-form videos on TikTok and Instagram. Ryan, you’ve recently launched a late-night show out of Comedy Bar Danforth called “After Hours With Ryan Belleville” on YouTube. Why did you start it?
Belleville It really depressed me that Mark Carney had to go on Jon Stewart to talk about the Liberal leadership. There was no comparable Canadian show for him to do that. The internet is like the Wild West, where you can still do something and find an audience. “Kill Tony” — a live podcast, stand-up variety show co-hosted by Tony Hinchcliffe and Brian Redban — has a massive audience that is probably similar in size to Jimmy Fallon’s talk show. It took 10 years to build that.
I was talking with friends about the need for a Canadian show, and Gary Rideout Jr. at Comedy Bar said, “Why don’t you host one?” It’s not what I wanted to do. But complaining doesn’t get you anywhere.
An interesting twist is that Canadians can satirize talk shows on programs like “SCTV,” “Royal Canadian Air Farce” or “This Hour Has 22 Minutes,” but not do the real thing.
Belleville For years, “22 Minutes” was a little handcuffed by what they could and could not talk about. I think they’ve evolved and learned about social media, and they’re putting out great material right now.
Comedians are perceived as frightening. I remember the CBC was taping a comedy festival, and they told me I couldn’t say the word “Newfie” onstage. It was a blanket policy. I told them I’d done the joke many times, in Newfoundland and elsewhere, and was going to do the joke. They said they’d cut it. When I did the joke, it got a huge laugh in a 1,500-seat theatre and it made it onto the air. But there was a fundamental lack of trust.
Sometimes you just have to give people the ball and let them run with it. If it fails, it fails. But at the end of the day, comedians want to get laughs. They’re not there to shock an audience.
Clark You mention “22 Minutes,” but I remember interviewing Tommy Sexton and the cast of “CODCO.” The CBC had already banned the sketch called “Pleasant Irish Priests in Conversations” (inspired by the Mount Cashel Orphanage child abuse controversy). There was animosity toward comedy that would be thought of as potentially offensive. That’s so Canadian. The CBC wanted comedy that had a social good and made everybody feel better.
Belleville Remember “Kids in the Hall.” It’s considered one of the edgiest shows to have come out of here. But it didn’t make it to air because CBC took a risk. Lorne Michaels, one of the biggest comedy producers in America, basically demanded it because he had a deal with HBO in place. The CBC’s arm was twisted. So I guess we’ve got to keep twisting their arm.
That leads nicely to the Riyadh Comedy Festival, which raised some questions about whether you should perform in a country with horrible human-rights abuses. Also, some comics on the bill complained about being censored by the left — particularly on college campuses — and yet by signing on agreed not to make fun of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the royal family or any religion. Was the paycheque worth it?
Clark I don’t think any of them cared about the human rights abuses. This festival happened on the anniversary of the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi.
There’s a quote by (George Bernard) Shaw that goes something like this: someone asks, “Would you sleep with me for a million pounds?” And the person says yes. And then he asks, “What about 100?” And they say, “No, what do you think I am?” And he says, “Well, we’ve already determined that. Now we’re haggling over the price.”
The question is, What’s your figure? No one’s offering me an enormous amount of money to go and do something, so it’s easy to say I wouldn’t do it. Dave Chappelle can go on the record saying he can joke about things at Riyadh and not get cancelled. But the average Saudi is not going to have the same rights.
Belleville It’s easy to take the high road when you’re not looking at a suitcase full of sweet, sweet, probably American cash. After the story broke, a couple of things made me uncomfortable. One was the extreme backlash online against the comedians. Sure, they deserve to be called out, but why hold comics to higher standards than anyone else? Canada has sold over $1 billion worth of arms to Saudi Arabia. Russell Peters and Sugar Sammy have both performed there before, and now suddenly them appearing in this festival is a big faux pas?
I don’t think they should have gone. But there’s also something to be said for the slow-moving cultural soft power of something like comedy. Is this festival going to change minds over there? Maybe not now, but perhaps in 20 years?
Paul As a woman who was born in this country, where I was allowed to learn to do things like read and write and work — where there are so many countries in the world where women are denied that — I need to be careful about where I plant my feet and say my piece. Storytelling is a sacred act. It’s sacred to be able to stand on a stage with a microphone and speak your ideas without fear of persecution.
Belleville One of the things that sits uncomfortably with me about the festival is that the comics were barred from making fun of religion or the royal family. All comics have done corporate gigs where you’re not allowed to do certain things. But at its core, comedians are the ones who are supposed to make fun of the king. They’re supposed to say the king has no clothes.
In America, at least until recently, you had people like Colbert hosting the White House Correspondents’ Association Dinner and making fun of George W. Bush in front of him. He did not get thrown in jail or beheaded.
Liza, how do you program a comedy festival in such a divided society?
Paul First, the artists need to make us laugh and not feel uncomfortable. And I don’t equate feeling uncomfortable with being “edgy.” I mean that feeling where they’re going a little far offside, and the room is quiet. And even if they deal with traumatic happenings, they’re going to handle it with care, so we don’t walk out feeling violated.
I also want the programming to reflect what I see when I walk down the street or go to a (comedy) jam. I want the stage to look like the Toronto I know.
Andrew, I imagine the Humber School of Comedy wants to encourage all kinds of comedy. Do you have any controversial comics, like, say, Andrew Schulz or Tony Hinchcliffe?
Clark Comics go through various stages. When you go from zero material to four minutes, it feels great and quite exciting. Then they can go through the “potty-training” phase, where they try to be edgy, and if it doesn’t work they say the audience can’t handle the truth. Hopefully they go past that and keep going. Comedians are like singers. You sing the way you’re meant to sing. Bob Dylan and Maurice White sing the way they sing. So a comic has to figure out how they are particularly funny.
You want to have free speech, but I’d argue for responsible speech. If you want to make a joke, say, about sexual assault, then remember that in an audience of 100 people a number of them will have suffered that. If you’re telling the joke to be shocking, you’re likely harming those people, you’re stupid and probably not funny.
Where do you think this is all heading?
Belleville I was speaking with a friend in Calgary the other day, and he made an interesting point. He said it doesn’t matter if freedom of speech is “protected” fully in a constitution if it’s not exercised. There’s been a weird right-wing resurgence in comedy over the past few years that some are calling “the broligarchy.” I find that unsettling. But I feel like there’s pushback now. I think people realize the system is against us a bit. And that’s a good thing for comedy. People are starting to fight the system. That’s where it should be. We’re due for some good stuff in Canada — and in America.
Clark There’s a book called “Dead Funny,” about comedy under the Nazis. The author brings up an interesting question: Were the comics who were ringing the bells and alarming people about the Nazis confronting power, or did they act like a release valve on the anger of the general public, assuring them that everything was okay? Did they agitate things, or accidentally become a part of the system that kept people passive and feeling like things were normal? That’s going to be an interesting idea going forward, because it’s fair to say that in the West we’re seeing the rise of authoritarianism.
We’ll see where it goes, but I have faith in comedians.
Paul Unfortunately, the darker it gets, the better the jokes. Do I think Riyadh and the talk shows are going to move the needle in any real way? No, because we have the attention spans of gnats. But I am relying on this talent that we have in this city and in this country. People like Andrew Phung and Nkasi Ogbonnah. For five days this month (at Comedy Is Art) they will speak truth to power in a way that brings a little lightness to these very dark times.
This interview has been condensed and edited for clarity.
